Podcast
Topics covered
- Stats about foreigners in Switzerland
- Secondos
- People with a migration background
- Where foreigners live
- Rights and responsibilities of foreigners in Switzerland
- Foreign workers in Switzerland
- Famous foreigners
Who We're Speaking With
In this episode, Daniel Shalom and Diccon Bewes speak about foreigners in Switzerland.
Diccon grew up in Britain but moved to Switzerland in 2005. His first book, Swiss Watching, became an international bestseller and he is now writing his ninth Swiss title. He lives in Bern with his partner (and a cupboard full of chocolate).
About the Episode
Millions of foreign nationals and people with a migration background live in Switzerland. They are a diverse, young, and economically active group. Although some foreigners live in the smaller cantons, they are mostly concentrated in the big cities like Zurich, Basel, and Geneva.
Some interesting facts about foreigners in Switzerland:
- How many: Over 2.2 million foreigners live in Switzerland. This makes up about 25% of the Swiss population. Additionally, about 20% of residents have dual citizenship.
- Who: Most foreigners come from European countries. The top nationalities are Italy, Germany, and Portugal. There are also around 43,000 Brits and 19,000 Americans living in Switzerland.
- Where: In terms of absolute numbers, most foreigners live in Canton Zurich. However, the proportion of foreign nationals is higher in Geneva, Basel City, Vaud, and Zug.
- What they do: The foreign population is younger and healthier than the local population. Most immigrants are working-age. They carry out essential jobs in healthcare, agriculture, and many other fields.
- Rights and responsibilities: Resident foreigners have to pay taxes and take out health insurance. If they lose their jobs or get ill, they can benefit from the Swiss social security network. However, they can’t vote until they become citizens.
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Transcript
Daniel: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Expert Guide to Your Life in Switzerland. This is Daniel here from Rigby. We are a staffing and IT services company based in Zurich.
Diccon: And my name is Diccon. I'm an author of books about Switzerland, but I live in Bern.
Daniel: And this time, we're going to be talking about something quite different, which is foreigners in Switzerland.
Diccon: Which of course we both used to be when we both arrived in 2005. We were foreigners. We were British, but we are both now Swiss, actually dual-nationals. But there are still lots of foreigners in Switzerland. And I thought we should start with a couple of the figures that get bandied around a lot, whenever you read articles about foreigners or see news reports.
The main one is 2.2 million resident foreigners. So that does not include tourists and visitors who are here for less than 90 days. It's around about 25% of the resident population, which is quite high in European terms. Only Luxembourg and Liechtenstein have a higher percentage. And Daniel, I'm sure you know where most of those foreigners come from.
Daniel: Yep. So most come from EU states with Italy, Germany and Portugal top.
Diccon: Yes, and then the likes of France and Spain. And of course, there are quite a few native English speakers living here. There are around 42,000 Brits, and around 19,000 people from the United States.
And what I love about Switzerland, one of the many things I love about Switzerland, is the fact that the Swiss government loves statistics. And so, you can go on to the Swiss government website and find out how many resident foreigners there are here from any country in the world.
So, for example, at the moment, there are 53 people from Fiji living permanently in Switzerland and 20 from San Marino, which is probably about 10% of the population of San Marino living here. Obviously, that does include diplomats. So, but I'm not sure San Marino has an embassy in Switzerland. So, you can get very, very detailed figures from the BFS, the Bundesamt für Statistik, the link will be in the show notes. So, if you want to see how many Colombians are living here, or how many there are from Nepal, who arrived in the last five years, all of that you can find.
Daniel: It's all there.
Diccon: It's all there.
What we mustn't forget, of course, is that headline figure of 25%. There's also people like us who are dual nationals, that's actually 20% of the adult population. It's quite high. So, a lot of people who become Swiss keep their original passport. Switzerland's quite liberal in that sense, you can have different passports. And I think the more interesting figure is that 20% of the foreigners were actually born here, unlike you and me. So, they're second generation or even third or fourth generation. If you're..
Diccon: The so-called Secondos.
Diccon: The so-called Secondos, which I'm sure you're going to explain.
Daniel: Yeah, so secondo, as in 'second' - second generation immigrants, the children of immigrants to Switzerland.
Diccon: Or even third generation. I mean, technically, third generations are tercios I think, but secondos is the general term. So yes, if your parents are not Swiss, but you are born here, you are still a foreigner. You take either of your parent's nationalities. It's not like in America where you are born American if you are born in America. So, you have to apply to become Swiss, through naturalisation if you are born here as a secondo.
And then the very interesting term, which I think the Swiss have come up with all by themselves, because they have so many foreigners living here or people with a foreign background is this interesting term you get in the news a lot - 'people with a migration background'. And that's actually 40% of the population. Now, I'm going to give you a stab at what that means, Daniel. I'm hoping you haven't looked it up online already.
Daniel: Well, I could take a guess, but why don't you tell us Diccon?
Diccon: Well, I will read out exactly what it says online on the government website, and we'll see if we can make sense of it.
People of a migration background - all foreign nationals, naturalised Swiss citizens, except for those born in Switzerland and whose parents were both born in Switzerland, as well as Swiss citizens at birth whose parents were both born abroad. That's a bit complicated.
So basically, it includes us because we are naturalised Swiss citizens, and we were not born in Switzerland. It includes all foreign nationals, so the 25% that we talked about, but then it also includes Swiss citizens who were Swiss at birth, but their parents were born abroad. So that's for instance, if you and your wife came here as foreigners, you became Swiss. Your children when they're born here would be Swiss because you are Swiss, but they would have a migration background because both their parents were not Swiss. So, it's a very loose definition as well as being a complicated one but it actually shows you 40% of the population have some sort of migration background, which is quite a high percentage.
Now, I'm going to ask you - this episode is just me asking Daniel difficult questions basically and seeing if he can answer them - where do the most foreigners live in Switzerland?
Daniel: Yeah, okay. Well, I think in absolute numbers that would have to be Zurich. But if you mean proportion of the population, maybe somewhere like Zug?
Diccon: Yeah, so if we look in absolute terms, obviously Canton Zurich is the highest. It's the largest canton in terms of population, and lots of foreign companies. Companies employing foreigners, so obviously, a lot of foreigners, 430,000, like you, living in Canton Zurich. Then come the more populous cantons like Vaud and Geneva and Bern. But you're right, a better way of looking at it, maybe as percentage of the population. Then Geneva is by far the top with 40% of the canton are foreigners. Partly, obviously because it's Geneva, an international city with the UN and all the Red Cross and the other organisations. Then Baselstadt, Vaud and your guess Zug actually comes in fourth. All of them ahead of Zurich, which is only on 27%. And of course, you get quite a few cantons, the smaller rural cantons where the foreign population is in single digits in terms of percentage.
What I found really interesting when I was researching Cartographica Helvetica - which is the kids’ atlas, and of course, we had a section on foreigners in there because a lot of foreign children will be reading it - there are a few communities - Gemeinde in German - where foreigners are actually the majority, so they outnumber the locals.
The two most famous examples that are often touted are Kreuzlingen, which is next door to Konstanz in Germany. So, it's the last stop of Switzerland. Literally, the border runs through the middle of the street, and Renaud in Canton Vaud. So, both those are minority Swiss communities, which must drive the right-wing parties mad.
Daniel: Yep.
Diccon: Now, you're going to give a very, very brief interlude about tax and health insurance, because I'll leave the boring stuff to you.
Daniel: Yep. So as residents, foreign people still have to pay tax, of course, usually. And they still have to have health insurance. And they can claim benefits and buy property just like Swiss citizens, up to a point. This sometimes depends on the type of permit you have, like a B or a C, and sometimes on your nationality and whether you're an EU citizen or not.
Diccon: Yes. And I think that's a really important point that a lot of people assume that just because you're a foreigner, you're not integrated, because you're not Swiss, and you can't vote. But of course, that doesn't mean you can't pay tax. And it doesn't mean you can't have, can't go without health insurance.
So, I think it's always important to point out that foreigners make up 25% of the population, but also are quite well integrated and part of society in the sense that they have to do almost everything that Swiss people do. They can't vote and they don't have to do military service. The two big exceptions, but voting is a big issue. Because there was this whole argument a few years ago in America called ‘No taxation without Representation’, which led to the American Revolution. And foreigners here cannot vote at federal level. But as we just said, we foreigners do have to pay tax. I still say 'we', meaning you and me, even though we're Swiss as well.
There are some cantons where you can vote at cantonal level. Jura and Neuchatel, slightly more liberal French-speaking cantons. It is based on residency, so it's not like you can move there and start voting. You have to live there for a minimum of a few years. And at a local level, basically, almost everywhere in the Swiss Romande, in the French-speaking part, you can vote at local level. So, at the community level, and I think that's actually a really good way forward. Because it's interesting, when we both did the naturalisation to become Swiss, we had to prove that we were integrated. Which can be quite hard.
I mean, I think we were both asked, do we have Swiss friends? Are we a member of a Verein? You had to prove how integrated you were. And I found it quite difficult to come up with concrete proof. But I think if you can show that you have voted at a local level because you've been resident for five years. I think that's a really good way of showing that you are integrated.
Daniel: Engaged.
Diccon: Yes. And want to take part.
The counterpoint, you have to remember the Swiss abroad can vote, even though they don't pay tax here. They may never have lived here. They may never have been in Switzerland, but they still can vote. So, I think this is an interesting debate. The Swiss Parliament recently rejected all proposals to give foreigners any voting rights at federal level. I don't think it's going to happen anytime soon.
I don't know how you feel about not being able to vote. It irritates me - irritated me when I wasn't Swiss but was here long enough that if I had lived in Geneva, I could have voted. But, because we're in a German-speaking part, I couldn't.
Daniel: Yep. So, the vote you mentioned took part very recently in June.
Diccon: Yes.
Daniel: And, yeah, sure it irritated me because by that point, I'd been living in Switzerland for over 10 years. And my children were born here. And we've been paying taxes, and we've been law abiding, and so on. And yeah, we didn't have any say on anything really, until about a year ago.
Diccon: And I think the local level is an important factor in Switzerland, because there are lots of votes at a local level, and people can decide for themselves through direct democracy. So, it's not like in Britain, where you vote every four years with a local council, and no one really knows what's going on. And voting turnout is very low at a local level. I think here, integrating foreigners at a local level, can only bring benefits. It's not as if the Swiss Romande has collapsed, politically or socially, since they gave foreigners voting rights. So, I think it's something that could come.
The other thing I always like to point out, mainly to just put it out there, the National Council, which is the equivalent of the House of Commons, or the House of Representatives, so it's the main body of Federal Parliament, is elected by the people every four years. And the number of seats each canton has is based on the population. But it's based on the population, not on Swiss citizens. And so, foreigners are included in that, even though they cannot vote. So, Geneva has quite a large population and has 12 seats in the National Council. But remember, 40% of its population are foreigners, cannot vote, so maybe it should have fewer seats. That's another tricky issue, which should come up for debate at some point.
Daniel: So, seat distribution should be based on voters?
Diccon: Or at least Swiss citizens. I mean, because you obviously have to include children in how you determine the population and they can't vote. So maybe Swiss citizens, rather than just population. I guess the counter argument is the population still uses streetlights and rubbish collection. But then that's what local politics involves, rather than national politics.
Daniel: Now, we're going to say a few words about the workforce.
Diccon: We are because foreigners do work. I know some people like to think that they just sit around, doing nothing, claiming benefits, not doing much at all other than picking fruit. But actually, foreigners make up a much bigger chunk of the workforce than the actual population.
So, it's around 30% of the workforce, are foreigners, rather than the 25% of the population. And what I found interesting, when I've been researching this is that some sectors are much more reliant on foreigners. And it tends to be, much like in Britain, I have to say, as Brexit has shown, tends to be the jobs that locals either won't do, like fruit picking or working as a waiter or working in care homes, because it's low paid and not great hours, or they can't do because they're not qualified enough, like doctors and teachers. That's why if you go to almost any hospital in German-speaking Switzerland, you will find quite a lot of the medical staff will be speaking High German, because they're from Germany, but a fair few of the porters and the ancillary staff will probably be speaking Portuguese or Polish or something like that. So, I think it's quite interesting that very often, when certain parts of the political spectrum come up with the anti-foreigner debate that they have, that they overlook how much the Swiss economy is dependent on the foreign workforce.
Daniel: Yep. And there are some regions in particular which depend on foreign workers.
Diccon: And I'm sure you're going to tell me which ones.
Daniel: So cross border workers that live outside Switzerland but work here. In German they call it the Grenzgänger and there's a..
Diccon: Wonderful pronunciation by the way. I see you've been working on your umlauts!
Daniel: It's around 340,000, particularly important in Ticino and Geneva and Basel. We know a few.
Diccon: And that's every day, they cross the border every day. They live abroad, literally abroad, because it's cheaper generally, but they work in Switzerland. And those areas are not dependent on them, but they need them and it was clear when the pandemic struck and the borders were closed, how many health care workers especially in care homes, and things like that in Ticino actually live in Italy and come across the border every day.
My favourite fact about foreigners and we've had quite a few this has been fun facts this episode. But my favourite fact is that the foreign population in Switzerland has a lower death rate from the Swiss population.
Daniel: Yes, you're right. That is a fun fact. But there is quite a simple explanation behind it. Right?
Diccon: Yes. What do you think it is?
Daniel: It's because they tend to be younger and still of a working age, not yet retired. And when they do retire, they often go back to their home country, of course.
Diccon: I was going to say it's because they all have healthy jobs. They're all picking fruit and looking after old people. But yes, you're right. They are generally younger and healthier and in employment rather than retired. So, although I'm sure you remember, from the beginning of the episode, 25% of the population are foreigners. Only 10% of the deaths in Switzerland are foreigners. So, it is a marked difference. And I'm hoping that you and I aren't going to join that percentage any time soon. Although we would we have been the other column these days. It's interesting, where would dual nationals be? Would we be in both columns? Or would we now just be with the Swiss?
Daniel: That's a good question. Do we get counted twice? I'm not sure.
Diccon: And let's just finish with some famous foreigners, other than you, Daniel, of course, the most famous living foreigner in Zurich. You're up there with Tina Turner, of course. I haven't heard you sing before. We'll have to wait and see.
So of course, yes, Tina Turner came here as a foreigner, but like us, she became Swiss. My favourite resident foreigner who became Swiss as well is Albert Einstein because of course, he lived in Bern. And it was here he lived when he came up with his wonderful theory of relativity, E equals M C squared. And that's as much as I know about it or understand really, I'm a writer, not a scientist. But then we have Charlie Chaplin, Audrey Hepburn, both of whom lived and died and are buried along the shores of Lake Geneva. James Joyce and other permanent Zurich residents, because he's now in a cemetery in Zurich. And one of the most famous foreigners was, Mr. Lenin. Lenin not Lennon, by the way, in case you were thinking about music still. So, Vladimir was in exile here. Used to enjoy eating chocolate in Zurich, and there's a plaque on the house where he used to live. And then they put him on a train and sent him to St. Petersburg and we know what happened next.
Daniel: Yeah. You forgot another famous London who came to live here, Diccon
Diccon: Oh, now I'm racking my brains as to someone famous from London who lives here. Nope.
Daniel: Phil Collins!
Diccon: Oh, okay. That's why he didn't come up in my brain.
Daniel: And what about famous Swiss with one foreign parent?
Diccon: Roger Federer. So his mother was South African and James Bond, whose father was Scottish. I know he didn't exist, but we'd like to, we'd like to claim him as half-Swiss. Anyone else with one Swiss parent?
Daniel: Madame Tussauds?
Diccon: Ah, Madame Tussauds. Yes. She was actually born in France, in Strasbourg I think, but her mother was from Bern. And so, she came back to Bern before she went off and made death masks of dead French people, as you do.
Daniel: Right. Can we finish on that note, Diccon? Do we need something more cheerful?
Diccon: I think we can finish on death masks of famous French people. Why not?
Daniel: All right, well, we'll leave it there for this month then. Thank you all for listening. And once again, if you are looking for an IT role here in the Zurich area of Switzerland, or if you're looking to hire, please let us know, we'd be happy to help. The best way to do that is by sending an email to contact@rigby.ch.
Diccon: And I'm Diccon Bewes, I'm much easier to find and contact. You can just google me or look at dicconbewes.com and see the books I've written or some of the talks I've given. And we'll be back next month.
Daniel: We will. Thank you all. Bye.